Dzugan Method / XR for hormones

Dzugan Method / XR for hormones

Postby MamaGrok » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:21 am

No thread for Dr. Dzugan yet? Calling Colleen and anyone else who has used his protocols...

- What is the difference between DM & XR? The lady on the phone (b/c I guess I accidentally got directed to XR) said DM is "just hormones" and XR is "hormones plus nutrition and lifestyle (and something else I forgot)," and that you should do whichever works best for you. She was not pushing XR. I think Dzugan & Rozakis split. Any reason this means I should choose one over the other?
- What changes have you seen since following Dzugan protocols that can't be attributed to anything else you've done?
- Can I learn enough from reading Your Blood Doesn't Lie, or is the concierge service (at least, that's what XR offers, I think) needed?
- If I had a very good MD who read YBDL, would that be enough, or would paying for the DM or XR service offer a substantial advantage?

My hormones SUCK and just supplementing 33mg/day of DHEA has done, literally, nothing to the levels. I supp'd from Jan to March and re-did some tests with very disappointing results.

- pregnenolone is still hovering around 75 (optimal: 200-230)
- DHEA-S DROPPED from 280 to 218 (optimal 250-380) despite supplementation. ?
- 17-OH Progesterone - 78
- Total Estrogens went from 230 to 194 (optimal 250-437) (day 19)
- Estradiol went from 129 to 148 (woohoo?)
- Estrone - 94
- Progesterone stable at 14.2 (6-28 best; Colleen recommends >15)
- P:E Ratio went from 96 (9 months ago) to 83
- LH - 6.7. FSH - 5.8 (day 5 2 months ago)
- Testosterone plummeted. Jan'12 it was 30; Jun'12-21; Jan'13-24; Mar'13-8!!! (Optimal is 60-76)
- Free T is at the bottom of the lab range at .1
- %Free T is 1.28
- SHBG has gone up from 151 a year ago to 188 this Jan. It should be 51, say my notes? Lab range tops out at 122. This is obviously my problem.
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Re: Dzugan Method / XR for hormones

Postby LinD » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:27 am

I'm watching thus thread since it's my next step.... Thanks for starting it, CL.
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Re: Dzugan Method / XR for hormones

Postby Grammy1952 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:42 am

I adore Dr. Dzugan. I've been his patient going on 7 years now. HUGE, huge difference in my health. I had daily migraines. I read The Migraine Cure first and tried it on my own. My migraines got worse but that was actually helpful because I realized for sure that hormones were the underlying cause of them. It took several months for me to get migraine free, but gosh I feel so good now. Great energy, skin looks great. :)

They didn't offer me the XR but I probably get it all the time because if I have something else going on, he always tells me what to do, but then I'm one of his very first patients. Like when I came down with shingles he told me about Tagamet and Lysine. I warded off a 2nd bout with that. He is a miracle man with hormones.

That said, if you don't have migraines, you MIGHT be able to find a doctor who knows enough about hormones to just get those into good order. Migraines are an entirely different ballgame. They can take some very minute fine tuning that only he seems to know how to do.

DHEA won't do anything for your labs, especially so low a dose. You probably need 50-100 mg of DHEA. I took 100 for several years. your progesterone looks pretty decent. Total estrogens are low so you could use a little of that. More DHEA should bring up your testosterone.

You probably don't need nutrition and lifestyle because you already know all that. And quite honestly, I don't know what nutrition plan he follows. Rozakis was getting on a vegetarian kick and I let him know I didn't believe in that nonsense. LOL Yes he and Dzugan split and I was madder than you can imagine when I found out he didn't tell me. I don't get mad very often, but I was super ticked. I kept talking about Dzugan and he didn't say a word about it. I'm sure he knew I'd go with Dzugan because he is the hormone genius.

I truly feel he saved my life. I was living in a miserable world before finding him.
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Re: Dzugan Method / XR for hormones

Postby MamaGrok » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:12 am

I took 100mg at first, but it killed my sleep, so I backed down to 33mg and am working my way back up. I did 50 for the first time today.

It seems Dr. Rozakis is running the XR, and it is completely independent of Dr. Dzugan & DM now? So would you recommend doing XR for the total program if it doesn't involve using Dr. Dzugan at all?

I am a bit confused about my Pg:E2 ratio. It's "bad" by all the numbers I see, yet, as you noted, Pg isn't horrible, while E2 is (or, at least, total Estrogens - I'm not sure of the ideal range for E2 itself). I'm not sure what to think of that.

THank you!
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Re: Dzugan Method / XR for hormones

Postby Grammy1952 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:30 am

I would not pay for anyone but Dzugan. Here is his website: www.dzlogic.com. That's who you need to talk to. I always had to tell Dr. Rozakis what to do. He doesn't know nearly as much about hormones as I do. LOL I really really hate how he still uses Dzugan's name after they split.
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Re: Dzugan Method / XR for hormones

Postby Grammy1952 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:33 am

Call Linda McCale. She's who I talk to there. 866.225.4877 x 302
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Re: Dzugan Method / XR for hormones

Postby MamaGrok » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:29 pm

Thanks! They did make a solid effort to correct me when I mentioned Dzugan, and make sure I understood that they are not Dzugan Method, but XR, and why they are that, and the split, and all.

I wasn't sure what your recommendation was, since you mentioned that Dzugan may focus on nothing but hormones with anyone who isn't a very established customer like you. Thank you for making it clear! I really value your thoughts on this. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like Gretchen has gotten a ton of help from these protocols ... I hope I have better fortunes!
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Re: Dzugan Method / XR for hormones

Postby Grammy1952 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:35 pm

I think Gretchen's problem is she is listening to two different people. And I really think CT is hurting her. :(

I didn't realize when I was first answering you that you'd been redirected to the wrong site. I don't think Dzugan has two programs, just the one. So when you were talking about two I thought it was something new. His protocol includes supplements. Things like DHEA, pregnenolone, saw palmetto, all kinds of things. So it's comprehensive. I can't recommend Rozakis at all. For one thing, he's turning into a vegetarian so that prejudices me against him right there. LOL
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Re: Dzugan Method / XR for hormones

Postby KiwiLauren » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:05 pm

I would be very careful you know what your liver and kidney function are doing before you start supplementing more. DHEA can become both E and T (obviously not the latter in your case). How you metabolise and break down E is critical here, too. Your E can rise but you don't know what the 2/4/16 hydroxy break-down ratios are so rising can be good and rising can be bad. Similarly, if you have tanked adrenals, then DHEA is also a supply issue not just a supplementation issue - like filling a leaking cup.
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Re: Dzugan Method / XR for hormones

Postby LinD » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:14 pm

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Re: Dzugan Method / XR for hormones

Postby MamaGrok » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:16 pm

I remember that back in mega-thread days at MDA, jansz and others said to take DHEA first, then later pregnenolone. If DHEA led to excessive androgens, you should take 7-keto DHEA instead. That's all I remember. So I'm totally in the dark about other ideas & precautions and greatly appreciate them!

I have had lots of liver & kidney labs. Is that the kind of knowledge of function you mean, or is there anything else to know about? Sx? Imaging?

Is it simply a matter of testing, e.g., 16 OH estrogen (I made that up; don't know if that's really a test) like I did 17-OH progesterone? I can easily run those labs however often would be helpful to keep an idea on things.

Are these all things that a good doc like Dzugan would be keeping tabs on, or are you saying I need to keep an eye on them whether I'm working on my own or with his protocols (or similar).

I'm still not sure about the adrenals. I saw great improvement with the CT3P, which implies adrenals were at least a part of my problem. My temp is 100% steady now (either the iodine or the DHEA did it) at 98.6 second half & 97.6 first half of my cycle. That is an amazing change for me, and indicates better adrenal function. What would I need to keep an idea on to know if DHEA supp would always be fruitless, or to indicate sufficient improvement?

Great things to think about!
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Re: Dzugan Method / XR for hormones

Postby KiwiLauren » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:16 pm

LinD wrote:Would the adrenal drops be enough?
http://www.rockwellnutrition.com/had-ad ... ml#tablist


For what? Restoring adrenals? Dunno.

All I was saying is that healthy adrenals produce DHEA (with declining amounts with age, it seems), so if you're adrenals are struggling then you've got a supply-side issue not just a supplementation problem.
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Re: Dzugan Method / XR for hormones

Postby KiwiLauren » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:22 pm

MamaGrok wrote:I remember that back in mega-thread days at MDA, jansz and others said to take DHEA first, then later pregnenolone. If DHEA led to excessive androgens, you should take 7-keto DHEA instead. That's all I remember. So I'm totally in the dark about other ideas & precautions and greatly appreciate them!

I have had lots of liver & kidney labs. Is that the kind of knowledge of function you mean, or is there anything else to know about? Sx? Imaging?

Is it simply a matter of testing, e.g., 16 OH estrogen (I made that up; don't know if that's really a test) like I did 17-OH progesterone? I can easily run those labs however often would be helpful to keep an idea on things.

Are these all things that a good doc like Dzugan would be keeping tabs on, or are you saying I need to keep an eye on them whether I'm working on my own or with his protocols (or similar).

I'm still not sure about the adrenals. I saw great improvement with the CT3P, which implies adrenals were at least a part of my problem. My temp is 100% steady now (either the iodine or the DHEA did it) at 98.6 second half & 97.6 first half of my cycle. That is an amazing change for me, and indicates better adrenal function. What would I need to keep an idea on to know if DHEA supp would always be fruitless, or to indicate sufficient improvement?

Great things to think about!


First off, I know nothing about working with Dzugan except he's got a great reputation.

The 2/16 hydroxy test is a urine test and it tells you how you are breaking down E. High E with good/healthy metabolites is a good thing; high E with unhealthy metabolites is a bad thing. The E number will not tell you what the metabolites are. I am sensitive to this issue because this is where E is linked with cancer and other problems.

Liver function, as my doc explained to me, is about function (which the panels show) and also detox efficiency which is harder to gauge. However, the metabolite testing gives you a window into that because it is your liver's job to break down the E correctly.

An ASI is the only way I know - other than what you're already talking about (energy, temp) - to assess adrenal sufficiency. My sense from reading and learning more about this is that while pregnenolone steal is a real and valid, the hormone chain is much more complicated than that.
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Re: Dzugan Method / XR for hormones

Postby Grammy1952 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:26 pm

I take saw palmetto with mine so it metabolizes in the right direction. :) My testosterone was in the toilet and now it stays on the upper end of the range with DHEA alone, no supplemented testosterone.

Dzugan put me on DHEA and pregnenolone at the same time. I believe pregnenolone is more critical than DHEA so I disagree with what Jan said about it. But then I disagree with a lot of what he said. LOL He said women could get their progesterone high enough with pregnenolone alone and that just isn't the case.
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Re: Dzugan Method / XR for hormones

Postby Adriana » Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:34 am

... about the E2/E16 ratio - my doc checked that in urin. E16 is a so called bad metabolite so the conversion to E16 is a big deal. When this rato is not optimal then good results are achived with Indol3 Carbinol or the more active DIM - an active compound in brokkoli. So I ordered some since my conversion is quite ok but could be better - so for me having breastcancer 6 years ago a biggy ... so Estrogen alone is not sufficient as info.
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Re: Dzugan Method / XR for hormones

Postby quelsen » Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:43 am

MamaGrok wrote:No thread for Dr. Dzugan yet? Calling Colleen and anyone else who has used his protocols...

- What is the difference between DM & XR? The lady on the phone (b/c I guess I accidentally got directed to XR) said DM is "just hormones" and XR is "hormones plus nutrition and lifestyle (and something else I forgot)," and that you should do whichever works best for you. She was not pushing XR. I think Dzugan & Rozakis split. Any reason this means I should choose one over the other?
- What changes have you seen since following Dzugan protocols that can't be attributed to anything else you've done?
- Can I learn enough from reading Your Blood Doesn't Lie, or is the concierge service (at least, that's what XR offers, I think) needed?
- If I had a very good MD who read YBDL, would that be enough, or would paying for the DM or XR service offer a substantial advantage?

My hormones SUCK and just supplementing 33mg/day of DHEA has done, literally, nothing to the levels. I supp'd from Jan to March and re-did some tests with very disappointing results.

- pregnenolone is still hovering around 75 (optimal: 200-230)
- DHEA-S DROPPED from 280 to 218 (optimal 250-380) despite supplementation. ?
- 17-OH Progesterone - 78
- Total Estrogens went from 230 to 194 (optimal 250-437) (day 19)
- Estradiol went from 129 to 148 (woohoo?)
- Estrone - 94
- Progesterone stable at 14.2 (6-28 best; Colleen recommends >15)
- P:E Ratio went from 96 (9 months ago) to 83
- LH - 6.7. FSH - 5.8 (day 5 2 months ago)
- Testosterone plummeted. Jan'12 it was 30; Jun'12-21; Jan'13-24; Mar'13-8!!! (Optimal is 60-76)
- Free T is at the bottom of the lab range at .1
- %Free T is 1.28
- SHBG has gone up from 151 a year ago to 188 this Jan. It should be 51, say my notes? Lab range tops out at 122. This is obviously my problem.



Just me here, no "professional" and not female,

where is your HDL and LDL?
where is your cortisol map?

all your primary hormones are low, makes me wonder if you have been feeding the machine.
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Re: Dzugan Method / XR for hormones

Postby MamaGrok » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:26 am

Q, my labs are all here: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/th ... ost1056602
and here: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/th ... ost1062122

That doesn't include my most recent mini-set of labs, which is what you quoted above.

I appreciate all insight!

My HDL was FAB and is going down for some bizarre reason. (80 to 60)
My LDL has plunged since starting NDThyroid.
My cortisol was mediocre in the AM, below the charts at noon, and fine in the afternoon and evening. That was a year ago; I plan to take it again soon.
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Re: Dzugan Method / XR for hormones

Postby RiverNeighbor » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:58 am

I have in my notes that a lower trending HDL can be gut related, ESP. If other lipid indicator are improving
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Re: Dzugan Method / XR for hormones

Postby Grammy1952 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:19 pm

High LDL is often from low thyroid. My hubby's total cholesterol dropped 100 points after getting on thyroid. :) It went from 313 to 213. Not good that your HDL is falling though.
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Re: Dzugan Method / XR for hormones

Postby itsybitsy » Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:16 pm

I'm taking a second look at Dr. Dzugan since I'm growing unhappy with my doc here. I'm hoping he can work with a GP.

Thanks for the link. It's weird for the other guy to have his original site.
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Re: Dzugan Method / XR for hormones

Postby Grammy1952 » Thu Jun 05, 2014 6:18 pm

He's changed my life. :) He does work with any GP. The first step is talking to your doctor and explaining to him what you're doing and that Dr. Dzugan will send him updates to your hormones that your dr basically signs off on. Your prescriptions will be in your GP's name.
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